Past Transcripts from the Auto Parts Community Chat Room

Host: Joe Davis

April 10, 2001

<ADMIN> Welcome everyone to today's BuyReman.com chat session with Joe Davis.  Joe Davis was recently appointed APRA's Electrical Consultant.  He's had over 20 years experience in the industry, and is respected for his breadth and depth of knowledge.  We believed it was definitely appropriate for him to host our very first chat on BuyReman.com.  So, thanks Joe for being here - and thanks to everyone for coming.
<ADMIN> I will now activate the Moderation Menu
<JoeDavis> Good afternoon everyone
<ADMIN> When you ask a question for Joe, it will be sent to me first for review.   If a few minutes elapse between the time you post your question and the time it shows up in the room, don't be alarmed
<Rich Herrington> Joe- Have you heard about a nation wide shortage of 6G voltage Regulators?
<ADMIN> I will be moderating the discussion so that we keep an even pace, and everyone has a chance to participate.    We ask that you refrain from any offensive comments - be they directed toward anyone else or toward a company.
<ADMIN> No public criticism of any individual company or name-brand product. We appreciate, in advance, your cooperation with this.    A transcript of this chat will be posted online at www.apra.org next week.    If you have any questions for me, highlight "ADMIN" and type your message. Make sure Private is selected.    The same rule applies for any private message you wish to send anyone in the room.  Make sure you click on ALL USERS when you wish to resume chatting in the room.
<JoeDavis> With many of the distributors cutting back it does seem possible this might happen. I have not heard of any so far
<ADMIN> Let the games begin...
<ADMIN> Questions for Joe..
<Guest> OK Joe I have a question, how do I keep the pulley from coming off of a   CS144? It has a tapered collar that fits into the pulley.
<Rich Herrington> We have received some calls stating this shortage is there
<JoeDavis> Yes. I understand that a supplier has had some problems but that is all I have heard.
<JoeDavis> This does not surprise me with all fo the different versions that we have seen so far.
<Mohammad Samii>-><ADMIN> Aren't 6G alternators still under the Dealers warranty program?
<Rich Herrington> Joe discusses this pulley and it's removal and installation in his seminar
<JoeDavis> We are now seeing these tapered collars being used on CS130 and CS130D alternators as well as the CS144. We have found that this procedure works well.
 Inspect rotor shaft for gauges that will interfere with the collar.    Inspect in inside area of the pulley where the collar fits
<ADMIN> Note to everyone: When you ask a question, just type your question in the chat line as you normally would. No need to send the question to me directly.
<JoeDavis> Install a new tapered collar.   Assemble the DE parts but don't tighten the pulley nut.   Stand the DE assembly on the pulley on an open bed press. Apply a small amount of pressure to the SRE end of the rotor. This will remove the minute clearances between the pulley, fan, spacer, bearing, spacer and rotor. Reach up through the open bed of the press and tighten the nut with an impact wrench. Remove assembly from press and torque nut to 60-90 ft-lbs. We have been recommending this procedure for 4 -5 years without any problems
<Guest> What is going on with these strange looking pulleys? They look like they have clutches in them?
<JoeDavis> These are Overrunning Alternator Pulleys (OAP). This pulley has an overrunning clutch that helps dampen the harmonics noise and vibration from the alternator.  We have seen two different types, one with a sprag type clutch and the other with a flat spring that has clutch material attached to the outside of the spring. We have seen these pulleys on Bosch, Delphi, Nippondenso, Valeo and Visteon alternat
<Alan Levin>-><JoeDavis> Joe, Are the Chinese units as good as an OE reman?
<Mohammad Samii> Has there been a lot of calls for 6G alternators? I was assuming they were still under the dealer's warranty.
<Bob Thomas - Jacksonville> Joe, do you have any info on the Hitachi alternator brush lead failure?
<Mark Lane> Joe we see a lot of 3G and 4G off crown victoria police cars is there any aftermarket upgrades we always stress battery and cables ?
<JoeDavis> The pullies require a special tool to remove it from the rotor.
<Rich Herrington> I have seen 6G sales taking place in parts stores throughout the country. Seems that they are out of waraanty due to mileage
<JoeDavis> I seems more than what you would think for such a new series.
<JODY> can our questions be about "keep it current seminar"?
<Rick Mello> Joe what are some common causes for internal voltage regulator failure
<JoeDavis> What are you rebuilders seeing wrong with the 6Gs
<Nick Staub> Joe, what kind of effect do you think the ISAD systems are going to have?
<Mohammad Samii> Have not had one to rebuild yet!
<Mike Athay> We have not seen many 6G's yet but it seems that each one needs the plastic bearing ring.
<JoeDavis> I would advise stocking the tolerance ring for the 6Gs. I seems to break the inside lip when the bearing stays on the rotor
<Mike Athay> We, agree, that is exactly what we have discovered.
User [Name already in use /12.8.25.52] joined forum on Tue Apr 10 14:31:26 EDT 2001
<JoeDavis> This happens during disassembly. It is then also very difficult to get the regulator over the SRE Bearing
<Rich Herrington> One customer rebuilds for a police department and has seen many units fail
<Nick Staub> Joe, ISAD?
<GuestTerryParkhurst> I'm restoring an Austin-Healey 3000. What upgrade would you recommend over Lucas?
<JoeDavis> If you are restoring it - I would keep it as original as possible. Buy spare parts.
<JODY> may I ask a question about "keep it current electrical seminar"?
<Bob Evans> Terry - If using Lucas keeps you from driving beyond the sight of your garage door, you may want to use a Delco 10SI, with a self-exciting regulator
<Rich Herrington> I believe Nick is asking about the new starter/alternator system found in the Toyota Prius and in some new BMW. It is attached to the flywheel
<JODY> Joe, I do not see a seminar listed for the south, will you be bringing your seminar to our area?
 <Mike Athay> On a different subject, we have a Niehoff N1207 which we have to rebuild for our local fire dept. Do you have any tips for dismantling?
<JoeDavis> We are hearing that they will be other vehicles in 2002 Bosch is expected to have them on their larger trucks in 2010.
<Nick Staub> Joe, ISAD is integrated starter alternator damper. no alt or strtr
<Alan Levin>-><JoeDavis> Are rebuilders interested in using salvage parts from 6G alts?
<Mohammad Samii> I found a web site called usedbritishcarparts. They maybe helpful for lucas and Austin parts
 <JoeDavis> I feel that there will be many other DC motors to rebuild ie. water pumps, power steering etc.
<Rich Herrington> Nick, Different automotive manufacturers have different names for this type of package.
<JoeDavis> At this point I feel that we are in the salvage business and we need to think more about doing this.
<BobM- back again> Seminar schedule shows Joe will be in Orlando on November 17
<JoeDavis> Alan the problem is correct testing fo these salvaged parts. Some of the parts we see are OE rejects and it is much harder to determine their value.
<Bob Thomas - Jacksonville> Jody, Joe's seminar is scheduled for Nov 17 in Orlando
<Mary Frances> Yes, you need to concentrate on Salvage, but in my views, I see more New units sold in this part or the country . Also, more rebuilders are going out of business
<Alan Levin>-><JoeDavis> Where can I get standards to use when testing rotors and armatures
<JoeDavis> Alan's question was "Will rebuilders accept salvaged parts?"
<Nick Staub> Mary, what can we do about new units?
 <Jim> as a supplier, I am getting increased demand from rebuilders for tested good salvage to take costs out of the units
 <JoeDavis> Alan. I have not seen specifications for many of the newer units. My only suggestion is to document your test results over a period of time and use this for your specs.
<Mike Athay> Welcome Dennis - when is the new alt PIC book going to be available?
<Mary Frances> In by meaning what? New units are coming in from off shore by the bundles
<Mary Frances> We should build units in our own country
<JODY> CAN ANYONE CONFIRM THAT DISCOUNT AUTO PARTS IS NOW SELLING "NEW" UNITS? THE LAST FEW I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN NEW.
<Nick Staub> Mary, meaning I think we all are aware of this, so what do we do?
<Mary Frances> New, by meaning Rick, Total parts on units are new, no salvage
<Kent Wall> The new units are tuff to compete with. You have to hammer the fact that you provide expertise in a timely mannor.
<Rich Herrington> New does not mean OEM???
<Mary Frances> I believe rebuilt units are better working than a new units
<Jim> how about cat 2?
<Nick Staub> There is some need for new units to fill the pipeline/create cores to rebuild, but it's like a faucet, how do you turn it off?
<Mary Frances> that is correct Rich
<Prime> I am hearing that some of the major vendors are starting to realize the inferiority of some of the off shore copies. Can we expect to see more requirements for OE rebuilts?
<Mary Frances> but there are aftermarket new units
<Kent Wall> Depends on quality........
<Mark> if you can build new you will still get your parts off shore
<Mike Athay> Some of the "new" units we see are not rebuildable anyway as parts are not available.
<Nick Staub> without new units, the industry would not have made the kind of $ it did in the early 90's when the cs130 was at it's peak.
<Mary Frances> True Mike
<Mary Frances> And also I have seen new units, well they claim to be new, containing used parts
<Kent Wall> If the new units are not "compatable with OE design, it starts real trouble though.
<JODY> IF DISCOUNT IS SELLING NEW, WHY ARE THEY STILL REQUESTING A CORE? JUST BECOUSE THEY ARE NEW DOESN'T MEAN THERE BETTER. (BECAUSE OF WHERE THEY ARE BUILT)
<Mary Frances> These Mfg. companies are here is the US and by using used parts to save money. Then ends up to be a bad product
<Mike Athay> Jody, they need the core to resell to make even more money!
<Rich Herrington> Discount is beginning to offer "new" units through their overnight service. They are not yet stocking these parts. Auto Zone gas sold "new" units in their DursLast Gold line for a couple of years.
<Kent Wall> Jody-the same reason wrecking yards want cores. They either sell or scrap what you give them.
<Jim> AutoZone is selling new chinese units exchange also
<JoeDavis> Alan I agree but most rebuilders can not tell you how much it cost them to rebuild a unit.
<Mary Frances> Ken, That is not true in all aspects, some are
<Mary Frances> Mike, Cores are everywhere
<Rich Herrington> In the places that I have seen "new" units being sold there is no core value offered to the end user.
<Dennis Jacinto> Being printed now and should be available before month end.
<Jim> are cat 2 parts considered new, used or refurb?
<JoeDavis> Jim. That is the 64,000 dollar question.
<Global Remanufacturing> any news on the FORD 6g alternators and the 35-212 regulator?
<Bob Thomas - Jacksonville> Jim, I would consider them salvaged even though they are not used
<Mark> Mary if cores are everywhere can you sell me 10 M008T60372 starters
<Alan Levin> Do we spend more time educating the rebuilder on how he can rebuild instead of pushing for legislation that will benefit nobody because the rebuilders are heading for extinction
<Mike Athay> Jim, what are "cat 2" parts?
<Mary Frances> Well, I am leaving now. I think this is a great idea Mr. Davis. I don't know if this was the first time for the Chat, but I think this is good.
<Kent Wall> Yes, some of us are not seeing all (Alan's?) questions
<Jim> O.E rejects that may be cosmetic
<Rich Herrington> I believe these "cat 2" parts are OEM seconds. They do not, for some reason meet the requirements placed by the vehicle manuf.
<Rich Herrington> Education is the most important issue today.
<JoeDavis> I agree with Rich, but I have a slanted view on it.
<Mark> Hi phil this is a lot of fun can you bring some insite on the new products you have
<Nick Staub> ALAN, could you clairfy, legislation?
<Jim>-><Alan Levin> I have witnessed Delphi selling to the aftermarket overruns as cat 2
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> We have a new plug available for the 6G Alts it includes a PCB board to simulate the PCM its number is 337
<Bob Thomas - Jacksonville> I agree with Rich also. Education is more important today than ever before
<David Simon> All rebuilders need to work together to improve the New vs. Rebuilt opinion of our customers.
<Jim> marketing perceptions are developed with advertising
<Global Remanufacturing> WE cant find new forg 6g regulators....and the brushes....also,,,they are a bear to build
<David Simon> Rebuilders have been working hard to improve qualtiy, and have attained this in many regards. But who is watching or listening?
<Global Remanufacturing> any tips on building the 6G JOE?
<Mark> Phil I will take four # 337 I will call you with a PO
<Bob Thomas - Jacksonville> David, I agree. We have to educate our customers as well. Most will give you the business instead offshore if you explain the difference to them
<Mike Athay>  The majority of consumers are of the opinion that a product from the dealer is new.
<JODY> I am not sure you can get "all" rebuilders to agree on anything.
<Rich Herrington> Perceptions in today's world rank rebuilt product way below any "new"
<Jim> selling on value rather than price is the first step in marketing your product
 <Mike Athay - rejoin> Even units from mass merchandisers, consumers consider new.
<Nick Staub> This is somewhat difficult for most, since the industry was founded on being less expensive than new.
<David Simon> Most people believe that New mean OEM. That's hardly true even sometimes at the OEM level.
<Jim> education can help change perceptions with the "right" platform
<Rich Herrington> Can APRA help to develop a rpogram of public awareness?
<David Simon> My company has done Technical Clinic in our shop for our customers in the past and they are very helpful
<Alan Levin> Have ERE and APRA assist rebuilders in a public awareness campaign to help educate the public and perhaps the mass merchandisers
<David Simon> I beleive APRA has this on the 5 year plan.
<Nick Staub> Rich, great idea.
<David Simon> Our unity should be through the APRA.
<Bob Thomas - Jacksonville> Rich, That is a good suggestion. ASE has done it with auto repair. It has taken YEARS, but the sign now has meaning
<Jim> The APRA is the right vehicle for our message
<Joe Davis> Global. The problems that I see with the 6G happen during disassembly. Most of the tolerance rings are broken because the SRE bearing stays on the rotor. Then the brushes get broken trying to remove the regulator.
<Rich Herrington> We need to show the end user that our parts are in fact "good". By the way excuse my typing errors, sometimes fingers get in front of brain
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> ASE has a certification available related to our industry.
<Nick Staub> i have often thought that the apra should do radio ads or something like that.
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> This is further compounded by the employee turn-over in your customers ranks
<Joe Davis> Most don't realize that the SRE bearing must be installed after the DE and SRE are assembled together. The SRE bearing is the second last part to be installed then the dust cover.
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> Joe & All what are typical failure modes observed with the 6G
<David Simon> Certification has to be accredited. If I told you I had a PhD in rebuilding from Joes school of USA, it would carry the same weight as if it were from Harvard.
<Joe Davis> Global Yes after assembly. Look at a new tolerance ring. You will find a small lip on the inside that prevents the bearing from going to far down inside the alternator towards the slip ring.
<Mark> I have talked with some ASE tech. that dont know how to do a volt drop test. It has got to help only if they get updated training from time to time
<Global Remanufacturing> it does
<Brian Tubbs> Joe, what effect do you think the 20% reman tax credit (now included in the omnibus Small Employers Tax Relief Act) will have on the auto parts rebuilder market?
<Global Remanufacturing> the problem is that the unit won't start after assembly
<Joe Davis>   Mohammad is in charge I don't know that much
<David Simon> Certification has to be accredited to be respected. The small garages have the same problem as rebuilders do.
<Rich Herrington> In my experience the ASE test for electrical is extermely simple.
<Mike Athay - rejoin> Mark, we are really amazed at the number of so-called Techs. who don't know how to do volt. drop tests.
<Joe Davis> Phil. Most of what I have seen has been with new units.
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> Suggestion: Interatate Batteries has a book that is very helpful to techs, its very comprehensive
<Mark> Phil we have seen the 6G failures as regulators
<David Simon> A tax credit, although a good idea, will not affect the well established and equipped rebuilders. New machinery is not on the top of the list.
<Joe Davis> Brian Rebuilders need all the help they can get. A business owner can answer this much better than I can
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> What are typical symtoms?
<Rich Herrington> In my experience battery manufactuers have very limited knowledge regarding starters and alternators. Most of them will say it is ok to install a battery into a vehicle at a 70% of charge.
<David Simon> I think the APRA could support such a Bill, but cannot afford to be pouring resources and time into such efforts when the members are struggling agains imports and market perception.
<Nick Staub> I checked into the tax credit and it is very loosely written, on purpose. so the term equipment is unclear,. ie you could write of a new forklift, delivery van, not just hot water washer.
<Nick Staub> A new scanner for your computer, that HELPS you sell a reman product would fall under the tax credit bill.
<Alan Levin> The tax credit will not help when business is down. We need to focus on ways to sell more parts. After we accomplish this goal we can worry about buying new equipment. Besides there is plenty of used equipment that can be  purchased.
<admin> This brings us to the end of today's chat session. I'd like to thank Joe
 for taking the time to be with us, and I'd like to thank everyone here for
participating in BuyReman's first ever chat.
<Joe Davis> It has been a pleasure Thanks to all that have participated
<Brian Tubbs> Any suggestions on how we can make this better next time?
<Brian Tubbs> What did you all think of today?
<Brian Tubbs> Any suggestions for improvement?
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> It was good, for the first one!
<Rich Herrington> Brian, Is there any way to keep everyone linked once they are logged in? Also how can we keep on one topic until it is complete before proceeding?
<David Simon> I thought it was pretty good. A chat time was a good idea. When's the next one?
<Mark> this was very good we should do it again soon
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> In the future I think we can use this as a tool to network and share ideas and solutions
 <Brian Tubbs> We have made a note of the connection problems that some people were having, including me! :-)
<Rich Herrington> Enjoyed the opportunity to chat with everyone and look forward to doing it again.
<Brian Tubbs> MultiCity and Unibex will get on that right away
<Brian Tubbs> Thanks, Rich
<admin> Rich, we are thinking of changing the format to a threaded discussion board, that will keep the format together
<Brian Tubbs> We will schedule another one probably within a couple weeks
<Global Remanufacturing> the chat box need to be bigger!
<Phil Falk D&V Electronics> By staying focused on the topic under discussion would keep things flowing
<Brian Tubbs> Good suggestion, Aaron
<David Simon> Threaded chat is a good idea, it's not as intense and will separate the topics.
<Brian Tubbs> We will be adding message boards very soon.
 <Global Remanufacturing> right,,,,,,the box needs to be bigger....and more of a "buffer" to scroll back
<Brian Tubbs> Yeah, we'll work on that w/ MultiCity
<Global Remanufacturing> Joe....when are you coming to visit us again?
<ADMIN> See you all! Thanks!